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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 9663432" data-attributes="member: 6795602">I think you mean 100% by consistently and generalization and I mean typically or more often than not, when using them. I agree one cannot reach 100%, but I don't agree that generalization and consistently is required to be defined as 100% or anywhere near that.&nbsp; But I also don't see much benefit in arguing the definition, so I won't reply more on that part.And that PC has given up strong ranged options by using the shield.&nbsp; You've given up alot of damage by using your fighting style for defense and being limited to at most a d8 weapon due to defensive duelist.&nbsp; Just like I claimed would happen.&nbsp; You do 2d8+8 damage = 17 per turn.&nbsp; Factoring in the typical 60% chance to hit and you are at 10.2 DPR. (before accounting for crits).&nbsp; That's pathetic damage.&nbsp; It's like I just said, you are having to trade alot of damage and mobility/range to make a martial defensive.&nbsp; There might be a few exceptions, but that's generally true.Ultimately the defensive duelist martial PC you describe here is just not going to be very effective. The monk looks alot better for this.&nbsp; Alot more damage, mobility, ranged potential.&nbsp; Good control options.&nbsp; Grappler is an amazing option.&nbsp; The only downside is the base monk will still feel a little squishy because 17 AC and d8 hp isn't great for a melee character, even with a good reaction single hit damage reduction ability.&nbsp; Mercy Monks healing seems like a potential solve for that though.&nbsp; The fighter dip for 2nd wind, sap (spear) mastery and dueling fighting style seems like a particularly great addition.So I agree mercy monk with grappler is a martial character that can get strong defensive options, while maintaining offense/mobility/range/control.He seems to be mostly the exception to the general principle of needing to trade alot of offensive/mobility/etc to be able to get strong defensive abilities.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 9663432, member: 6795602"] I think you mean 100% by consistently and generalization and I mean typically or more often than not, when using them. I agree one cannot reach 100%, but I don't agree that generalization and consistently is required to be defined as 100% or anywhere near that. But I also don't see much benefit in arguing the definition, so I won't reply more on that part. And that PC has given up strong ranged options by using the shield. You've given up alot of damage by using your fighting style for defense and being limited to at most a d8 weapon due to defensive duelist. Just like I claimed would happen. You do 2d8+8 damage = 17 per turn. Factoring in the typical 60% chance to hit and you are at 10.2 DPR. (before accounting for crits). That's pathetic damage. It's like I just said, you are having to trade alot of damage and mobility/range to make a martial defensive. There might be a few exceptions, but that's generally true. Ultimately the defensive duelist martial PC you describe here is just not going to be very effective. The monk looks alot better for this. Alot more damage, mobility, ranged potential. Good control options. Grappler is an amazing option. The only downside is the base monk will still feel a little squishy because 17 AC and d8 hp isn't great for a melee character, even with a good reaction single hit damage reduction ability. Mercy Monks healing seems like a potential solve for that though. The fighter dip for 2nd wind, sap (spear) mastery and dueling fighting style seems like a particularly great addition. So I agree mercy monk with grappler is a martial character that can get strong defensive options, while maintaining offense/mobility/range/control. He seems to be mostly the exception to the general principle of needing to trade alot of offensive/mobility/etc to be able to get strong defensive abilities. [/QUOTE]

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