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D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

There are 2 factors that make it more important:

1. Lower Variance on winning and losing initiative - in 2014 you had enemies and allies rolling initiative. Whether or not you went before an enemy was based mostly on two d20 rolls - yours and the enemies. In 2014 monsters have fixed initiatives, so it is usually only based on one roll - yours. This makes the modifiers to your roll more statistically significant.
Wasn't thinking about this but I agree on this point. It also tends to mean there's a very narrow range for you to roll and go in between monster turns. You most likely either roll lower than all monsters or higher than them all.

2. Higher damage and conditions riders: In 2024 each action is more valuable because damage per turn is higher and additionally attacks come with debilitating conditions. An enemy losing initiative to a basic fighter with a Longsword usually means the enemy has disadvantage on his first attack, if the fighter hits 2 bad guys they both have disadvantage, if he action suges and hits 4 it is 4 with disadvantage. Losing initiative to a Rogue often means you are either poisoned or Prone and Slowed. Losing initiative to a Monk with a staff and topple feat usually means the enemy starts his first turn prone and grappled. If you lose initiative to an 11th level fighter with a Longbow who uses action surge and he hits all 6 times it means on your turn you are 50 feet backwards from where you started and with a 20 foot movement (assuming 30 move to start) .... and it could be 60 feet back if he made his first two attacks with darts instead of a Longbow. With a 30 foot movement you could dash and still be further away from the Archer than when you rolled initiative. Some of these things have no saving throw to boot.
I think I'm convinced here as well. There's alot more access to status effects now and they typically have immediate effects.

After the condition effects you have the damage. Winning initiative means 1 more action in combat compared to if you lost and an attack action does more damage now.
I don't agree here. Team PC doesn't gain a turn in a 4v1 battle by a single PC more winning initiative. The enemy most likely still lasts the same number of rounds. There's only a small chance a single PC winning initiative will end the fight meaningfully sooner with damage (fewer enemy actions).
 

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I don't think it's hard one bit.
Ok I believe you are wrong and I have yet to see any common generalizations that "more often than not" held true across multiple levels in a campaign.

Sorry but a single shot before you need to reload for a turn isn't a strong ranged option. There's no reason to assume you could close or even that it would be a good idea to.

Your premise is based on the idea the PC is weaker in ranged combat and therefore should close. A GWM-PAM does not have good ranged options either.

Also you can't reload in combat because you don't have a free hand. You only use it once.

It's also not very ranged (30 ft), not very sustainable (limited use resource), etc.

It is actually 90 feet.

Adding all that in doesn't take away the damage you've given up from no offensive fighting style, only a d8 weapon, no damage dealing feat. Assuming level 5 and GWF and GWM that's 2.5+1+3 x2 = 13 Damage per turn before accuracy adjustment.

Being less than something else does not mean being bad.

I'm going to challenge your 15 DPR. A level 5 character with +4 str/dex, a rapier and vex isn't doing 15 DPR. The absolute most I'm getting is 14.3.

It depends entirely on the number of attacks against a single enemy. If they have unlimited attacks against a single enemy it approaches 15 DPR at infinity.

I admit that is never going to get there, but as long as they attack an enemy twice it is also ALWAYS going to be statistically more than 10.2 DPR. How much more depends on what assumptions you lay down on number of consecutive attacks against a single foe.

Going 5 rounds against a Boss with 2 attacks a round and a 60% hit chance it is going to be a lot closer to 15 than it will be to 10.

I will also say in play it will generally outrun a GWM build due to the damage riders you get from things like Hunter's Mark which are also affected by Vex.

Vex d8+4 attacks at base 60% hit rate 5% crit rate. (This is DPR over the given number of attacks, not DPR after them).

2 attacks = 12.0 DPR
4 attacks = 13.0 DPR
6 attacks = 13.4 DPR
infinite attacks = 14.3 DPR

And look with 6 attacks you are already ahead of the GWM-GWF ... which if they are a caster they don't have GWF.

I don't agree that's RAW.

When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon

If I am holding a shield and I attack with a short sword I fulfilled the part in blue. This means I can make another attack with the Scimitar as per the part in red. There is nothing in the rules about needing to use two different hands or needing to be holding both weapons simultaneously.

Using nick you can make the extra attack without using a bonus action.

It is perhaps not RAI and I have not seen it in play, but it darn sure is RAW and was covered extensively on this board when the 2024 rules were released.

But all PC's built with more offensive options get those things as well. There's still a large damage gap there. You've given up a ton of damage to take defensive duelist and use a rapier.

No I haven't. I've given up very little damage statistically.


The more relevant question though is whether those abilities being accounted for is enough offense to outperform tanky caster options. Consider a Druid can do 3d10 with moon beam to many enemies every turn. He can also use circle of stars ability to make a d8+4 attack.

Can is not the same as do and giving up damage theoretically is not the same as giving it up in play.

Casters have a ton of options available but generally martials do the most damage in a campaign by a large margin.

I will say the Druid in one of our campaigns has been one of the top 2 damage dealers since level 7 (we are now level 16), but she is using Conjure Woodland Beings with wild shape and a Wand of Fireballs.

The Druid is ranged, has 19 AC to 24 AC with shield spell. I don't think the martial you are describing is doing enough damage to compensate, nor does he have significantly more defense to win on that front. He's less ranged. Etc.

I think the martial is generally going to do substantially more damage in play over the course of levels 1 to level 20.

Not just a little bit more either, but generally substantially more damage in combat.

If casters do typical stuff like focus on control instead of damage, then yes. If they focus on damage then I think a cleric and Druid out damage that PC while being just as tanky.

You mean the stuff full casters generally do?

Also 24 AC with the shield spell is not nearly as tanky as 23/24/25/26/27 AC without using a spell slot, or 26 AC with the Shield spell with either of these examples also having an average of 11.5 more hit points and giving the enemy disadvantage regularly. It is really not even close. A 24 AC Druid is actually closer to a 17 AC Rogue than he is to a maxed out sword and board with sap when it comes to being tanky.

As a matter of fact I would say a 9+ level GWM fighter with an 18AC and nothing else is about on par with that druid, due to the disadvantage from Sap.

Wizard will be able to with level 4 slots on summon fey. Though they probably are a bit less tanky and quite a bit less reliable given the limited number of those slots, at least for a while.

A Wizard can be the most tanky character in the game, but usually not while concentrating on summon fey. They need to concentrate on Blur, PEG or have mirror image up and those cut into damage because they take a round to cast.

Also summon Fey is not constant DPR in play. It is like action surge, you can't really count it in DPR because it is so limited use. Between it being fragile with a very low AC and concentration it is not going to last very long in combat if you are using it aggrssively. Summon Fey last longer than the other summons due to the defense afforded by the charm ability, but that is highly situational and doesn't work well with large numbers of enemies. By the time you get 4th level spells a single action by an enemy directed at the Fey is often going to kill it. As a result, either your Fey is fighting carefully and avoiding high danger, which limits effectiveness, or it is dying very quickly.

By the way I use this spell a lot on my PCs, mostly on Fey Wanderer Rangers, which is the most common class/subclass I play in both 2014 and 2024. Despite lacking the higher level slots, their kit works better with SF than the Wizard's kit does.

I don't think a bard stands much of a chance in the damage department.

Valor Bard with the 2024 rules is a high damage dealer statistically. At level 10+ Bards can get any of the Wizard, Cleric or Druid spells, so they have all those options plus a better attack action than any full caster except a Bladesinger.

The Valor Bard we had in the first 2024 campaign I played was trounced by the Champion when it came to damage though (as were all of us).
 
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If the group has hit an encounter so hard it had to nova, it's probably a bad idea to sit in that same spot for as many as 16 hours(depending on when the encounter happened) in order to get the next 8 hours rest.
I agree but think think that In 5e it's generally not so much of a case where the party hit an encounter so hard that they had to nova. Usually IME it's more of a case that the group is built around the concept of Nova first last and always because too many classes are designed to follow that path and there is so much trlisk mitigation in the rules that players never really need to consider a "what if" where they needed to nova but couldn't because the party was recklessly going Nova on easy and moderate encounters that never needed it.
 
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I see, you are saying every turn because of concentration.

Pretty comparable to a basic champ like the one I mentioned (of course his attributes play into this more) decreased to level 5, so take away the def fighting style. He is still running with 20.4 DPR (after 60% miss). Still has polearm reaction attack. Still has sap on a spear. Savage attacks improves consistency. AC is a flat 21, doesn't matter if several enemies use turns to attack him (no shield spell needed). This is using just his renewable resources, none of the limited ones. Have him put away the 🛡 and spear and AC drops to 19 and go halby-ham and you throw a d10 with possible cleave attacks (no great weapon mastery yet :🙃). He can do this all-day any-day consistently. Doesn't matter if the party cannot rest because of AB or C.

We could probably run comps all day long and the answer would be "comparable depending on the pacing of the adventure"... You are right to some extent, even at level 5 you probably have enough spell slots to last for the "average" campaign's encounters.

This character tends to have a highish plateau but compared to others. The parties caster certainly leaves smoking bandit boots with DPR, but at the end of the day she isn't consistently out-damaging anyone.
 

It is pretty easy. If you can maintain a stock of arrows and bolts for ranged characters, you can maintain a stock of potions of healing.

It is not easy mid-dungeon, but any time you are in a town with adventuring gear for sale you can buy them.

By level 5 or so I am generally leaving town with about 30 potions of healing, more if you have enough gold and a bag of holding or something to carry them in. That is usually plenty to last until the next town I am able to purchase them in.
You play in a magic mart heavy game, so your experiences are not the norm for play. Many games have no magic marts or very limited magic sales. Other games much more limited funds and/or more expensive magic.

The value of potions is going to be very situational to both play, as @EzekielRaiden pointed out, but also to each individual table.
At level 1 you start with 2 uses of 2nd wind per day, and replenish one with each short rest and this goes up from there.

The reason second wind is more valuable is there are more things you can do with it. Second Wind can be used to boost skill checks and to let you move as a bonus action, the potions in your backpack can't do that.

So if I have 2+ uses of 2nd wind I am going to use a potion for healing first unless I am positive we are going to short rest immediately after combat. With 1 use available I am not going to use it unless I know we are going to Long Rest.

Also any PC can use a potion as a bonus action on another. So it is not just the potions the fighter has, it is the potions the other members of the party have,.
Second wind recovery is also very situational from table to table. Many tables have unlimited short rests. Others like mine limit you to two short rests. Many tables use 1 hour short rests. At mine a short rest is.................short. It's a 5 minute breather, so while there may not be an hour in your game to grab a short rest for some reason, in my game it would work because you can almost always stop for 5 minutes to catch your breath and restore yourself a bit.
 

You play in a magic mart heavy game, so your experiences are not the norm for play. Many games have no magic marts or very limited magic sales. Other games much more limited funds and/or more expensive magic.

The value of potions is going to be very situational to both play, as @EzekielRaiden pointed out, but also to each individual table.

Second wind recovery is also very situational from table to table. Many tables have unlimited short rests. Others like mine limit you to two short rests. Many tables use 1 hour short rests. At mine a short rest is.................short. It's a 5 minute breather, so while there may not be an hour in your game to grab a short rest for some reason, in my game it would work because you can almost always stop for 5 minutes to catch your breath and restore yourself a bit.

I'm tempted to make short rests 1 minute capped at 2 per long rest.

Would probably bring back song of rest on bards and have it allow a third plus one off prayer of healing.
 
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I'm tempted to make short rests 1 minute capped at 2 per long rest.

Woukd probably bring back song of rest on bards and have it allow a third plus one off prayer of healing.
Mechanics wise 1 minute isn't much different from 5. Either way you will generally have time to take that rest.

I used 5 minutes, because when I was younger and played more sports and ond engaged in other highly energy intensive activities, 1 minute was generally not enough to recharge me. 5 minutes and I was usually good to go.

This isn't an argument against your 1 minute idea. It's just an explanation of my reasoning.
 

Mechanics wise 1 minute isn't much different from 5. Either way you will generally have time to take that rest.

I used 5 minutes, because when I was younger and played more sports and ond engaged in other highly energy intensive activities, 1 minute was generally not enough to recharge me. 5 minutes and I was usually good to go.

This isn't an argument against your 1 minute idea. It's just an explanation of my reasoning.

I think 1 minutes from Star Wars Saga Edition.
 


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