D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

ECMO3 said:

What rules? Can you cite that?

As an example, the Redbrand hideout in Lost Mine of Phandelver has 1151gp of loot in it, NOT counting magic items. Additionally it has probably around 5 potions of healing in that hideout alone.

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When your PCs sale loot do they get full price for it?

ECMO3 said:

Yes, any character "can" outdamage any other character in play. This is part of the problem with these type threads, they way oversimplify things and don't take into account numerous variable in actual play.

In an extreme example of this, a sword and board Wizard with an 8 strength, no proficiency in shields or the longsword she is swinging with disadvantage "can" outdamage an optimized GWM/PAM fighter if that Wizard rolls high enough to hit and the fighter doesn't. Roll enough times and it is not even in doubt, the Wizard WILL outdamage that fighter at some point.

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What a ridiculous reply.

Cap'n Kobold said:

In my experience it is extremely rare for a store to have significant amount of healing potions. The only time I've seen a player stock up on those sorts of numbers what when players asked "Do they sell healing potions?" and when the DM said "Yes." they didn't ask how many, they just marked down gold and added potions to their inventory.
In a large city, you could probably buy a significant amount of them by visiting multiple different shops that sell them, but assuming that every shop has everything in the adventuring gear section of the PHB, let alone in significant quantities, would seem to indicate an extremely accommodating DM.

Over a thousand gold at level 2 seems very unusual. IME parties generally don't even have the gold to pick up full plate by pooling resources at level 5 given their other expenses. I'm pretty sure I've played LMOP and we didn't have that amount of cash.

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I typically consider enough gold for any mundane gear by level 5. But not really any significant amount over that.

Also remember to maintain a stock of 30 healing potions one doesn’t need to simply buy them, one also has to replace any they used. That could easily be a lot more.

FrogReaver said:

I mean there's probably hundreds of thousands of variations of martials. I don't think it's very meaningful to say 'aha, one martial out of all of them can do this thing'. My use of typical is meant to carve out space for that kind of exception while still maintaining the ability to generalize.

IMO. We either talk in generalizations to some degree or the terms martial and caster becomes meaningless themselves.

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I think it is very difficult to come up with a generalization that holds up in play consistently in a one shot. I think it is impossible in a campaign that covers multiple levels with all sorts of random magic on hand that greatly skews this.

FrogReaver said:

It's really easy to build a survivable caster though. And without having to sacrifice very much.
1. You inherently have ranged options in a game where many enemies are either melee only or vastly more dangerous in melee.
2. You can easily level dip for armor if you don't have it.
3. You can get the shield spell via magic initiate origin feat, or worst case via single level multiclass.
4. You can use a few spell choices on various mobility, defense, summon and control spells to aid your survivability.
5. You can often maintain a strong control spell (either precast or cast on round 1) and spend the rest of the time dodging, while still having a large impact on combat.

And of course there's options for even tankier caster builds.

Melee focused martials though typically have to make significant sacrifices in order to layer in strong survivability.
1. If they want really good AC by taking a shield they give up alot of damage potential and possibly ranged potential as well.
2. They still need a way to handle enemies wanting to maintain range (either mobility, a servicable ranged attack, etc).
3. If they want high damage they typically need a feat, but their defensive options also come from feats.
4. A large portion of their damage comes from abilities that have offensive and defensive options. Reckless attack, battlemaster dice, smite spell slots. If one plays more defensively this even further tanks their damage.

It's very difficult to build an effective martial character focused on defense.

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I agree on making a tankier caster, but the part about the martial is not true IMO in 2024. The martial has the same dip options available as the caster and both better and more feats to accomplish defensive play and they also have weapon masteries that substantially boost damage or defense.

Any martial with heavy armor can be at 24 AC with a reaction at level 5 without using any spell slots at all (plate, shield, defense, defensive duelist) and they can be at 23 with medium armor. That is before any magic spells.

The Monk ability Deflect attacks is extremely effective in play. Combine this with a Ranger, Fighter or Rogue for nick(dagger), topple(staff) or sap (spear) and combine it with the grappler feat you are freaking awesome in combat.

There are numerous ways to play this and the character can go either way - strong offense or strong defense and you choose in the moment. I have this in a Monk-Rogue I am playing right now. I have nick and sap with dagger and spear respectively. Opening up against a new opponent and I will throw a dagger close and make an unarmed strike and grapple with "punch and grab" and then nick with a second dagger at advantage and with sneak attack if the grapple lands. Then I use my bonus action to knock the guy prone. If the unarmed strike-grapple doesn't land I still make the nick attack and then use FOB to try to grapple the guy and knock him prone. If everything lands I did 3d8+1d6 damage and the guy is both prone and grappled, and I can move him at my full move speed. We have a houserule that you can't use nick or light weapons using only one hand. If we were playing RAW it would be even more effective since I would not need to throw the first dagger, I could punch first and try to grab making both the next two dagger attacks at advantage with one hand.

If the guy is just grappled and not prone at the end of all that, next round I will hit him with the dagger on my second attack with sneak attack and then Sap him with the spear. Then if I think he is near death I will let him go, nick him and use a couple unarmed strikes against him or if not try to prone him again.

I also have Green Flame Blade through magic initiate and once I have a guy downed and grappled I drag him around to other combatants and use GFB to land extra GFB damage. He either attacks everyone at disadvantage or wastes an entire action to break the grapple (at which point I will do it again).

Add in using a spear for Sap and stunning strike or using patient defense and combine one of those with deflect attacks and the character is extremely effective at defense as well.

There is so much flexibility in this build and the character is pretty good at skills as well out of combat. What is described above is 6th level (Monk 5/Rogue 1). The PC is currently level 12 (Monk 5/Roge 7) and I am doing 4d6 on sneak and also I can throw a Cunning Strike on there to poison or trip the enemy.

I use daggers and a spear in my build, but I think it would work even better with a staff, opening up with an attack that can topple and then grappling when the guy is already down.

I also have the Jump spell on Magic Initiate which gets crazy with my awesome movement and slow fall. I use it to jump over a Wall of Fire or a Blade Barrier and get to the casters on the other side and then drag them through their own spell and I have evasion while grappling (they usually drop concentration). Our casters throw these same spells and I do drag the bad guys through them and jump back and forth from one side of the wall to the other. This is only 1 combat a day though since I can only cast Jump once.

FrogReaver said:

I typically consider enough gold for any mundane gear by level 5. But not really any significant amount over that.

Also remember to maintain a stock of 30 healing potions one doesn’t need to simply buy them, one also has to replace any they used. That could easily be a lot more.

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Absolutely, but at 50gp each (or less if you make them) it is pretty easy to do.

I would also say Potions of Healing are mundane gear. They are "common" and listed in the PHB under adventuring gear, along with things like Rope and caltrops etc.

FrogReaver said:

I mean there's probably hundreds of thousands of variations of martials. I don't think it's very meaningful to say 'aha, one martial out of all of them can do this thing'. My use of typical is meant to carve out space for that kind of exception while still maintaining the ability to generalize.

IMO. We either talk in generalizations to some degree or the terms martial and caster becomes meaningless themselves.



It's really easy to build a survivable caster though. And without having to sacrifice very much.
1. You inherently have ranged options in a game where many enemies are either melee only or vastly more dangerous in melee.
2. You can easily level dip for armor if you don't have it.
3. You can get the shield spell via magic initiate origin feat, or worst case via single level multiclass.
4. You can use a few spell choices on various mobility, defense, summon and control spells to aid your survivability.
5. You can often maintain a strong control spell (either precast or cast on round 1) and spend the rest of the time dodging, while still having a large impact on combat.

And of course there's options for even tankier caster builds.

Melee focused martials though typically have to make significant sacrifices in order to layer in strong survivability.
1. If they want really good AC by taking a shield they give up alot of damage potential and possibly ranged potential as well.
2. They still need a way to handle enemies wanting to maintain range (either mobility, a servicable ranged attack, etc).
3. If they want high damage they typically need a feat, but their defensive options also come from feats.
4. A large portion of their damage comes from abilities that have offensive and defensive options. Reckless attack, battlemaster dice, smite spell slots. If one plays more defensively this even further tanks their damage.

It's very difficult to build an effective martial character focused on defense.


For what it's worth, one of my favorite characters was a Bear Barbarian/Swashbuckler Rogue back in 2014 rules with a fondness for grappling, high mobility, and utilizing sneak attack for strong opportunity attacks. I very rarely reckless attacked. I went more of a con focus than str or dex. My damage was a bit lower than it could have been, but as long as I was raging I was virtually unkillable (or at least the other PC's would die long before I would. This worked well only because I had enough control options and super high mobility layered into the build.

So yes, there's an example of an effective yet highly defensive martial, and yet I still had to really sacrifice damage potential. It pretty much required swashbuckler rogue for mobility, opportunity attack damage scaling and grappling ability.

But here's the thing. I don't actually think this character was more effective than something as simple as any spirit guardians cleric that primarily dodges when enemies are attacking him and that's without considering the rest of the cleric kit.

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Fair enough, it is an interesting post because there is alot of room for interpretation. I also opened Pandora's box with "rest and survivability". I just sortof latched onto that "consistency" bit. To me, the all-or-nothing nature of most full casters (one big attack, expended reactions, etc..) knocks them down a peg when it comes to consistency on the long adventure day. But, my playgroup has adjusted to frenetic pacing without many towns or shops available, they are well-aware that I push a chapter until expendables start running low.. so there are some unique builds in that setting, and I often get to see the results of consistency under thin resources. The "stank" ranger is usually doing well. But, the martial made the "suboptimal" choice of polearm mastery, 🛡 mastery, then great weapon master. Dueling and protection fighting styles. It seems like some nonbo choices but it makes for a very multimodal fighter that will start on defensive mode while having +2 1 hand dmg and bonus attack, if enemies get rounded up or a boss makes high AC negligible, he will drop the 🛡 and go ham with a halbard and cleave + bonus attacks with HWM damage output. He often will do this locknstep with his paladin brother who also has the protection style... so disadvantage is incredibly common against both. It really is neat to see, there are very few encounters where those 2 are worried about their HP. They are more worried about keeping the support alive.

EzekielRaiden said:

Because on those days, the people with spell slots just got the biggest possible windfall. They have an amount of resources designed to be spread out across a major swathe of challenges. Instead, they are able to ruthlessly exploit those resources over--what, two, maybe three encounters?

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Play doesn't work like that outside of the white room, though. In a game where many or most days the PCs need to conserve resources in order to spread them out over a bunch of encounter, you will see the same conservation on days where they don't need them. Players aren't psychic and aren't going to know until they get to their long rest whether or not they could have gone nova in the encounters they had.

Those non-flashy fighting style examples can be very effective without taking up a spell slot/resource... just a reaction. You also have sap on the spear guy. Meaning they are just imposing disadvantage easily and repeatedly, all day long, except when I betray them with terrain (usually)

ECMO3 said:

I think it is very difficult to come up with a generalization that holds up in play consistently in a one shot. I think it is impossible in a campaign that covers multiple levels with all sorts of random magic on hand that greatly skews this.

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I think you mean 100% by consistently and generalization and I mean typically or more often than not, when using them.

I agree one cannot reach 100%, but I don't agree that generalization and consistently is required to be defined as 100% or anywhere near that. But I also don't see much benefit in arguing the definition, so I won't reply more on that part.

ECMO3 said:

I agree on making a tankier Wizard, but the part about the martial is not true IMO. The martial has the same dip options available as the caster and both better and more feats to accomplish defensive play and they also have weapon masteries that substantially boost damage or defense.

Any martial with heavy armor can be at 24 AC with a reaction at level 5 without using any spell slots at all (plate, shield, defense, defensive duelist) and they can be at 23 with medium armor. That is before any magic you pick up.

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And that PC has given up strong ranged options by using the shield. You've given up alot of damage by using your fighting style for defense and being limited to at most a d8 weapon due to defensive duelist. Just like I claimed would happen. You do 2d8+8 damage = 17 per turn. Factoring in the typical 60% chance to hit and you are at 10.2 DPR. (before accounting for crits). That's pathetic damage. It's like I just said, you are having to trade alot of damage and mobility/range to make a martial defensive. There might be a few exceptions, but that's generally true.

Ultimately the defensive duelist martial PC you describe here is just not going to be very effective.

ECMO3 said:

The Monk ability Deflect attacks is extremely effective in play. Combine this with a Ranger, Fighter or Rogue for nick(dagger), topple(staff) or sap (spear) and combine it with the grappler feat you are freaking awesome in combat.

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The monk looks alot better for this. Alot more damage, mobility, ranged potential. Good control options. Grappler is an amazing option. The only downside is the base monk will still feel a little squishy because 17 AC and d8 hp isn't great for a melee character, even with a good reaction single hit damage reduction ability. Mercy Monks healing seems like a potential solve for that though. The fighter dip for 2nd wind, sap (spear) mastery and dueling fighting style seems like a particularly great addition.

So I agree mercy monk with grappler is a martial character that can get strong defensive options, while maintaining offense/mobility/range/control.

He seems to be mostly the exception to the general principle of needing to trade alot of offensive/mobility/etc to be able to get strong defensive abilities.

ECMO3 said:

Absolutely, but at 50gp each (or less if you make them) it is pretty easy to do.

I would also say Potions of Healing are mundane gear. They are "common" and listed in the PHB under adventuring gear, along with things like Rope and caltrops etc.

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healing potions are magic items. magic does not equal mundane...